@ND Baseball (Poll)

[MWBATL]

Given our tendency in the final game of series (exception @ Va, Tech) maybe it’s best to simply postpone the game tomorrow and come home?

 

[DecaturJacket]

I'm over making the point about Patel. It worked against 3 of the worst 4 conference teams on our schedule. Hurray! The fact that he's been needed in these games should tell you why he's more valuable starting against the better teams coming up.

 

[MWBATL]

I will say that Brady Jones looks like he’s a perfect two inning guy.

If I am reading the results correctly, I think in 5 of his 6 starts he gave us one scoreless inning to start, and in 4 of 6 he gave us two scoreless innings. After that….we don’t talk about Bruno….

(Well, to be honest he has given us 3 quality starts in his 6 games….)

 

[DecaturJacket]

One of my biggest takeaways this weekend has been that Hernandez is not a first baseman. I don't think he's made a single pick. Take Baker out of the lineup, move Hernandez back to 2b and try somebody else at 1b.

 

[FredJacket]

I'm over making the point about Patel. It worked against 3 of the worst 4 conference teams on our schedule. Hurray! The fact that he's been needed in these games should tell you why he's more valuable starting against the better teams coming up.

On a scale of 1-10. Ten being the most annoyed/angry/not understanding. ...where are you on Patel not starting?

I'm sort of resigned to coaches know the things I'd need to understand (& just don't have the inside insight) to sway me to change his role.

 

[GT33]

Patel is 7-0, pitched in 8 games so far. You have to go all the way back to 2019 to find a GT pitcher with 7 wins in an entire season.

 

[DecaturJacket]

On a scale of 1-10. Ten being the most annoyed/angry/not understanding. ...where are you on Patel not starting?

I'm sort of resigned to coaches know the things I'd need to understand (& just don't have the inside insight) to sway me to change his role.

That's possible, but it's also possible that coaches are people too and like to stay with their original ideas to prove themselves correct despite all the evidence. Who knows.

At this point, all we can do is hope it all works out for the best. It seems clear that they are set on their ways.

EDIT to answer your question. I'm a 10 in that I know what I would do as a coach, but at this point in my life I don't live/die by wins/losses and the coaches decisions, so I'm a 2/3 on being upset about it. The player and coach in me is more annoyed by it than anything I am as a fan.

 

[DecaturJacket]

Patel is 7-0, pitched in 8 games so far. You have to go all the way back to 2019 to find a GT pitcher with 7 wins in an entire season.

And that means nothing at this point in the season other than he's thrown a lot of innings and we haven't played any of the toughest teams on our schedule yet.

 

[GT33]

And that means nothing at this point in the season other than he's thrown a lot of innings and we haven't played any of the toughest teams on our schedule yet.

Ah all those other seasons those other pitchers only pitched against the toughest teams. I was not aware of that.

 

[DecaturJacket]

Ah all those other seasons those other pitchers only pitched against the toughest teams. I was not aware of that.

Patel is 7-0, pitched in 8 games so far. You have to go all the way back to 2019 to find a GT pitcher with 7 wins in an entire season.

Sorry, I thought you'd have been following long enough to understand the point I was making without me having to spell it out again.

My point is that him getting 3 midweek wins (and adding to his innings - of which he's already only 6 year shy of his career high - and he's in his 5th year) in relief is not sustainable moving forward if we want to use him against the meat of our schedule which we have coming up. It's a great stat and I'm happy for him, but we have bigger goals (and tougher teams ahead). Hopefully we get smarter with his use moving forward. He's a big part of our success and we're going to need him.

 

[FredJacket]

That's possible, but it's also possible that coaches are people too and like to stay with their original ideas to prove themselves correct despite all the evidence. Who knows.

At this point, all we can do is hope it all works out for the best. It seems clear that they are set on their ways.

EDIT to answer your question. I'm a 10 in that I know what I would do as a coach, but at this point in my life I don't live/die by wins/losses and the coaches decisions, so I'm a 2/3 on being upset about it. The player and coach in me is more annoyed by it than anything I am as a fan.

I appreciate you're perspective. No judgment here. I respect the fact you went to 10.

 

[gtbeak]

I'm over making the point about Patel. It worked against 3 of the worst 4 conference teams on our schedule. Hurray! The fact that he's been needed in these games should tell you why he's more valuable starting against the better teams coming up.

Sorry to keep this topic rolling, but it is very interesting to me... Why do you think the strength of the opponent matters regarding the strategy of which pitchers to use at what point in the game? I have thoughts as to why you might believe that, but out of respect I don't want to lead the witness.

Spoiler alert...I think how we are using Patel is sustainable even against the better teams, but I truly am willing to be convinced otherwise. As evidence, I agree with you that the only inning guaranteed to be "high leverage" is the 1st.

2nd spoiler alert...I think it is also possible to use Patel as a starting pitcher and have success, but the old philosophy of "don't fix what ain't broken" and also the recent example of Terry Busse make me be of the opinion that we roll with this strategy until it stops working. And yes, I know that moving Terry Busse from a 1 or 2 inning "closer" to a starting pitcher is quite a bit different than the move Mason Patel would be asked to make. But I still am gun-shy from that recent experience.

ETA: I'm heading out to dinner, so it may be late tonight before I get the chance to join in the conversation further.

 

[gtbeak]

Maddux isn’t pitching and the Braves aren’t hitting. A 2 hour game is not gonna happen.

It's now looking like the rain may not arrive until 2 PM, so a 10 AM start could be early enough to get the game in. The temps would likely be warmer than they were today.

That reminds me...Cincy, I believe you are there in person. Any "behind the scenes" tidbits we may have missed, or have you not worked your way out of the block of ice that formed around you today?

 

[GT33]

It's now looking like the rain may not arrive until 2 PM, so a 10 AM start could be early enough to get the game in. The temps would likely be warmer than they were today.

That reminds me...Cincy, I believe you are there in person. Any "behind the scenes" tidbits we may have missed, or have you not worked your way out of the block of ice that formed around you today?

I got an alert 1st pitch is at 1100.

 

[FredJacket]

Is this 1100 South Bend time? Or EDT? Is there a difference?

UP NEXT
The Jackets will go for the sweep tomorrow at 11 a.m. from Frank Eck Stadium. Tech is expected to start R-Soph Riley Stanford (0-0) against Notre Dame’s Rory Fox (0-1). The game will be streamed live on ACC Network Extra.

Career Day from Patel Lifts Jackets to Series Win

Georgia Tech Yellow Jackets

ramblinwreck.com

 

[GT33]

Is this 1100 South Bend time? Or EDT? Is there a difference?

UP NEXT
The Jackets will go for the sweep tomorrow at 11 a.m. from Frank Eck Stadium. Tech is expected to start R-Soph Riley Stanford (0-0) against Notre Dame’s Rory Fox (0-1). The game will be streamed live on ACC Network Extra.

Career Day from Patel Lifts Jackets to Series Win

Georgia Tech Yellow Jackets

ramblinwreck.com

There's a corner of Indiana (Gary, etc) in the next zone over but pretty sure South Bend is in same zone as Atlanta.

 

[CINCYMETJACKET]

There's a corner of Indiana (Gary, etc) in the next zone over but pretty sure South Bend is in same zone as Atlanta.

Yup, same time zone as Atlanta.

 

[CINCYMETJACKET]

It's now looking like the rain may not arrive until 2 PM, so a 10 AM start could be early enough to get the game in. The temps would likely be warmer than they were today.

That reminds me...Cincy, I believe you are there in person. Any "behind the scenes" tidbits we may have missed, or have you not worked your way out of the block of ice that formed around you today?

Watching Jones pitch today, I thought he looked really good. Low pitch count, 5 K's the first 2 innings. I can see why the coaches like him. After the first out of the third, the downfall started with an error by Lackey. Three well placed hits with a couple of walks sprinkled in later, his day was done. None of the balls were hit hard, just well placed. Even the double down the line was really just poked the other way just inside the 1B bag. If Hernandez had been holding the runner on, it's right at him and likely a DP. I don't think today was Jones's fault, just bad baseball luck.

The wind was really playing havoc out in the outfield. Our outfielders handled it well, but I think we've had 3 or 4 popups in the first 2 games out in the Bermuda Triangle in right field that fell in for hits between the Notre Dame players.

I was actually colder at the end of the game yesterday than I was today. It wasn't warm by any stretch of the imagination, but the sun being out all day helped and I had more layers on as well. I melted any ice that may have formed by going to the Evil Czech Brewery and getting an order of their Baba Yaga wings, which supposedly has a pepper sauce with Carolina Reaper, scorpion, ghost pepper, and Fresno chili's.

 

[DecaturJacket]

Sorry to keep this topic rolling, but it is very interesting to me... Why do you think the strength of the opponent matters regarding the strategy of which pitchers to use at what point in the game? I have thoughts as to why you might believe that, but out of respect I don't want to lead the witness.

I know I've said it over and over, but it's about where he enters the game. 0-0 vs potentially entering with us behind (or not at all) once we start getting to better opponents who will score at a greater frequency - and potentially have better pitching that will make it harder for us to come back. (In the regular season) I want my best guys going when it's 0-0 to give me my best shot at getting a lead. You're typically bringing in a reliever either to get of a specific high stress situation or once the starter is out of bullets for the day. This whole long relief option mostly only works when you have a lead or can get a lead quick. As the competition gets better, the odds of those two things decreases.

(In the regular season) I am adamantly against using Patel after Tate unless it's in short relief. As much as I like the pitching this season, having to go into the next two days without Patel at this point is not a recipe for success. Maybe that changes as we get deeper into the season and guys gain experience and show us more, but going into Clemson that is the case.

Spoiler alert...I think how we are using Patel is sustainable even against the better teams, but I truly am willing to be convinced otherwise. As evidence, I agree with you that the only inning guaranteed to be "high leverage" is the 1st.

When I say it's not sustainable, I'm specifically referring to the usage for both midweek and weekend. It's not about recovery time. There's only so many bullets in an arm. He's already about an about an appearance away from matching his career high in innings pitched in a season. That isn't to say that he can't go over that and be successful. However, the further you get away from that established max the increased odds of ability and control falling off.

Going back to what I said above, I also don't think using him after Tate in a long relief role is sustainable for success either. Unless your goal is to make sure you win 1 game a weekend. That's not to say we can't win without him, but I play the best odds, not possibilities. Tate + other relief on Friday and then having Patel (and Paden) for the next two is out best bet currently imo. We just don't have enough proven arms to rely on to keep rolling out Brady and Riley - especially if we don't have Patel to come in.

2nd spoiler alert...I think it is also possible to use Patel as a starting pitcher and have success, but the old philosophy of "don't fix what ain't broken" and also the recent example of Terry Busse make me be of the opinion that we roll with this strategy until it stops working. And yes, I know that moving Terry Busse from a 1 or 2 inning "closer" to a starting pitcher is quite a bit different than the move Mason Patel would be asked to make. But I still am gun-shy from that recent experience.

So if we play KSU, Bowling Green, and Kansas in football and we win, but look bad doing it you wouldn't change a thing? I get that it's not apples to apples, but the validity of the argument is the same. Just because something has worked vs the lesser teams on our schedule DOES NOT mean it will work (or is a good strategy) vs the better teams we have coming up. Against lesser teams we've been able to get away with the way Riley has pitched. Good teams don't let you get away with all those free baserunners. Also, the odds our offense performs the same against these better teams coming up is not good.

Terry Busse was a career reliever. He had never started a game before we tried it. That is not the same as Patel who has started 16 games and would have started more if not for injury - He started 3 times out of his first 4 out for State as a freshman before getting hurt. He has mostly been a career starter.

I like Patel. I like Taylor. I like the rest of our pitching staff. None of this is meant to take away from any of them. I've played and coached and been around the game for a long time. I'm just giving my insight. Baseball is a funny game. Things go well until they don't. They go bad until they don't. Things change quickly. When you see an issue you have to fix it BEFORE it comes back to bite you. Right now the Saturday and Sunday starts have been issues. We've been able to get away with it, but better teams aren't going to let you get away with it. The coaches seem to be addressing the Sunday issue without changing Patel's role. I think they're going to be forced to address the Saturday role sooner than later and I'm not sure there's a better answer than Patel. If it's not Patel, I still think we need to start saving those bullets and CANNOT continue throwing him in midweek games (save ugag - that's a must win to me and I expect a lot of people, so consider that a playoff game). As I said before, I also don't think pairing Tate and Patel is a good strategy (at least beyond an emergency short stint to get out of a jam after which he'd still be available later in the weekend). Therefore I'm mostly for saving him for Saturday or Sunday. If that's the case, I fully believe that there's no reason not to start him and guarantee that 0-0 start and important innings.

 

[Techcaster572]

I'm over making the point about Patel. It worked against 3 of the worst 4 conference teams on our schedule. Hurray! The fact that he's been needed in these games should tell you why he's more valuable starting against the better teams coming up.

Decatur,

I couldn't agree with you more.
Mason has built the 7-0 record out of the pen against the weakest part of our schedule.
If we are unable to close out midweek games w/out Mason Patel, we have much bigger problems for the remainder of the season. I'll add that if you plan to start Mason midweek vs the mutts or both times against Auburn, I'm 100% behind that idea.

I would argue that if Mason started, he could easily be 5-1 or 6-0 as a weekend starter.

Brady & Riley both average less than 3 innings per start giving up, on average 3-5 runs per game against the likes of ODU, Marshall, W. Michigan, Fake Tech, Pitt, and ND.

What do you think happens when Brady and Riley who both struggle with control gives up 7 or 8 runs in 3 innings to Clemson or Stanford. What value does Mason have in that scenario?

People seem to think I'm being critical on Brady or Riley. Not at all. They both have better stuff than Mason, but Mason understands the art of pitching. Mason gets a hitter down 0-2 and he doesn't waste a pitch but neither does he throw a meatball down the middle of the plate. He pitches to weak contact.

Brady and Riley have yet to master that skill though they have excellent stuff.

Aeden Finateri was similar. His fastball sat in the mid to high 80's and his palm ball in the mid 70's mph but he had solid control and pitched to weak contact.

He and Mason realized that a solo shot hurt far less than two straight walks.

People seem to feel this is an attack on Hall, Riley, or Brady.

I absolutely think our BEST pitcher should be a starter.
If we were to host a regional, who would you to start game 1 against a 4 seed? For me there is NO question but to start Mason.

You can say I'm a 10 on wanting Mason to start but Hall is the coach, and my opinion means absolutely NOTHING, but this isn't the first weekend I've been saying this.
Goes all the way back to week 2 so I'm not a Monday morning QB on this topic. Been consistent most of the year that Mason should start especially since we are now heading into the meat of our schedule.

My friend and I went to Clemson last year and the only game tech won was an outstanding comeback where drew hit two moonshots and Beccheti and Lackey had critical hr's late to seal the game for us but most forgot the two critical shut out innings from Mason Patel to keep us in the game and seal the victory against an elite offense in Clemson.

I couldn't agree with Decatur more when you are dealing with better arms in Clemson and Stanford so you're likely not gonna have a six run cushion to see how Brady and/or Riley does so why not have Mason start at 0-0 giving your team the best chance to win.
And I, as well, cannot stand the Tate/Patel combo cause your playing with Saturday and Sunday fire.
Make no mistake that Mason will give up runs to the likes of Clemson and Stanford but He is much more likely not to give up crooked #'s as I feel the current Sat/Sunday starters could very do

We have some very good arms that should be able to close out games or be used in short/long relief.
If we don't, then we are likely not going very far in the tournament if Mason is the only reliable bull pen arm that we have.