2026 Baseball - General

Sugar3ThousandPounds

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
416
Ok... my annual little rant about RPI. I waited until [almost] the end to see if the "math" would work itself out. It did not... again.

It needs to be relegated to the "other" or "interesting" rankings/ratings pile. OR the function needs to be modified to be better. Every season we reach this point and you look at the RPI rankings and there are teams you just know are not correctly ranked based on their resumes. Sure... RPI is a mathematical thing... but it produces flawed results. I suspect it is 2-fold.
1) Too much weight on the home/road factors
2) Too much negative weight on simply playing poor teams (....who generally play poor teams). If you are a good team that beats a bad team, you should not be (net) penalized.

Worth repeating... every year teams literally cancel games to avoid the the penalty of simply playing a weak RPI team. ...and there's always a crowd clamoring to say schedule tougher teams. Sometimes you 'try' and either it doesn't work out or the teams you scheduled that 'were good' the previous year turn out to be not good. You also need their schedule to be on the tough side too. Not as much control over that part of the RPI calc as folk may think.

This won't be popular... but objectively. When the SEC champ (by a LOT) has 22+ SEC wins and is barely cracking the Top 15 of your 'system', something is not right. UGA is 5-games ahead of the 2nd place SEC team, yet 6th in RPI in the conference. ??? I know folks will say "play a tougher schedule" and you won't have this problem. To that I say YES.. play a tougher schedule AND RPI is too flawed right now to be the primary tool to compare teams. Both things are true; and frankly, should not be related at all. That's the problem with a lot of problems out there...instead of actually fixing the root cause (RPI), folks bend over backwards to force changes 'around' the problem (i.e. cancelling games for no good reason other than the RPI impact or hand-waving "well they should have had a tougher schedule").

Again... I'm not saying get rid of the RPI. I like that it is a repeatable calculation and not hidden behind some proprietary "model". However, when it seems to be so heavily used to sort our post-season placement, I have a problem with that.

I'll hang up and listen...
Agreed on both of your main points. My “fixes” would be to:

(1) Change the home-neutral-away weighting to 0.8-1-1.2. The current weighting effectively says it’s twice as hard to win on the road than at home. That seems excessive. 50% more difficult seems more reasonable

(2) Assign everyone ranked 180 and worse the RPI of team #180. At some point bad teams are bad teams and all games against them should be weighted the same.
 

GTNavyNuke

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Ok... my annual little rant about RPI. I waited until [almost] the end to see if the "math" would work itself out. It did not... again.

It needs to be relegated to the "other" or "interesting" rankings/ratings pile. OR the function needs to be modified to be better. Every season we reach this point and you look at the RPI rankings and there are teams you just know are not correctly ranked based on their resumes. Sure... RPI is a mathematical thing... but it produces flawed results. I suspect it is 2-fold.
1) Too much weight on the home/road factors
2) Too much negative weight on simply playing poor teams (....who generally play poor teams). If you are a good team that beats a bad team, you should not be (net) penalized.

Worth repeating... every year teams literally cancel games to avoid the the penalty of simply playing a weak RPI team. ...and there's always a crowd clamoring to say schedule tougher teams. Sometimes you 'try' and either it doesn't work out or the teams you scheduled that 'were good' the previous year turn out to be not good. You also need their schedule to be on the tough side too. Not as much control over that part of the RPI calc as folk may think.

This won't be popular... but objectively. When the SEC champ (by a LOT) has 22+ SEC wins and is barely cracking the Top 15 of your 'system', something is not right. UGA is 5-games ahead of the 2nd place SEC team, yet 6th in RPI in the conference. ??? I know folks will say "play a tougher schedule" and you won't have this problem. To that I say YES.. play a tougher schedule AND RPI is too flawed right now to be the primary tool to compare teams. Both things are true; and frankly, should not be related at all. That's the problem with a lot of problems out there...instead of actually fixing the root cause (RPI), folks bend over backwards to force changes 'around' the problem (i.e. cancelling games for no good reason other than the RPI impact or hand-waving "well they should have had a tougher schedule").

Again... I'm not saying get rid of the RPI. I like that it is a repeatable calculation and not hidden behind some proprietary "model". However, when it seems to be so heavily used to sort our post-season placement, I have a problem with that.

I'll hang up and listen...

uGag got penalized for losing to a lot of ****ty teams. RPI takes the entire season into account without regard to conference or mid week.

I think blending use other metrics like is being explored is the way to go. But I like having a "reasonable" identified system where a blended deterministic system is used, however flawed, over the crony politics of assigning seedings.

BTW, IIWII. And get off my yard.
 

MWBATL

Helluva Engineer
Messages
7,920
UGa played like a thin top heavy team...great on the weekends and terrible in midweek games.

Lesson: Midweek games DO count....not as much as weekend, but they DO count (and they should...otherwise make them free admittance and call them scrimmages)
 

FredJacket

Helluva Engineer
Messages
7,409
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Fredericksburg, Virginia
uGag got penalized for losing to a lot of ****ty teams. RPI takes the entire season into account without regard to conference or mid week.

I think using other metrics like is being explored is the way to go. But I like having a "reasonable" identified system, however flawed, over the crony politics of assigning seedings.

BTW, IIWII. And get off my yard.
Yep.. that is the math. Here is the problem. I'm repeating myself. UGA is going to probably be no lower than the #3 overall seed with an RPI 10-15. So... the committee is basically tossing RPI for UGA (for probably good reason). Now... if you're saying RPI does not suit your purposes for UGA... how can you justify leaning on it so heavily for ~90% of the field??
 

L41k18

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,014
Ok... my annual little rant about RPI. I waited until [almost] the end to see if the "math" would work itself out. It did not... again.

It needs to be relegated to the "other" or "interesting" rankings/ratings pile. OR the function needs to be modified to be better. Every season we reach this point and you look at the RPI rankings and there are teams you just know are not correctly ranked based on their resumes. Sure... RPI is a mathematical thing... but it produces flawed results. I suspect it is 2-fold.
1) Too much weight on the home/road factors
2) Too much negative weight on simply playing poor teams (....who generally play poor teams). If you are a good team that beats a bad team, you should not be (net) penalized.

Worth repeating... every year teams literally cancel games to avoid the the penalty of simply playing a weak RPI team. ...and there's always a crowd clamoring to say schedule tougher teams. Sometimes you 'try' and either it doesn't work out or the teams you scheduled that 'were good' the previous year turn out to be not good. You also need their schedule to be on the tough side too. Not as much control over that part of the RPI calc as folk may think.

This won't be popular... but objectively. When the SEC champ (by a LOT) has 22+ SEC wins and is barely cracking the Top 15 of your 'system', something is not right. UGA is 5-games ahead of the 2nd place SEC team, yet 6th in RPI in the conference. ??? I know folks will say "play a tougher schedule" and you won't have this problem. To that I say YES.. play a tougher schedule AND RPI is too flawed right now to be the primary tool to compare teams. Both things are true; and frankly, should not be related at all. That's the problem with a lot of problems out there...instead of actually fixing the root cause (RPI), folks bend over backwards to force changes 'around' the problem (i.e. cancelling games for no good reason other than the RPI impact or hand-waving "well they should have had a tougher schedule").

Again... I'm not saying get rid of the RPI. I like that it is a repeatable calculation and not hidden behind some proprietary "model". However, when it seems to be so heavily used to sort our post-season placement, I have a problem with that.

I'll hang up and listen.
I'm sure this has been addressed here already, but there are two other metrics the committee has said publicly they will look at this year in addition to the RPI - the Kevin Pauga Index (KPI) and Diamond Sports Rankings (DSR). Sometimes there is quite a disparity between those and RPI.
 

orientalnc

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Retired Staff
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Everyone knows I have no love for uga, but I think this fixation on RPI and the its impact on seeding is way past the curiosity stage. I think uga deserves whatever seeding they get. We know we are at least ten runs better than them.
 

DecaturJacket

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Noteworthy:

1778852254905.png
 

FredJacket

Helluva Engineer
Messages
7,409
Location
Fredericksburg, Virginia
I'm sure this has been addressed here already, but there are two other metrics the committee has said publicly they will look at this year in addition to the RPI - the Kevin Pauga Index (KPI) and Diamond Sports Rankings (DSR). Sometimes there is quite a disparity between those and RPI.
Yes. Thank you for that reminder. No doubt the committee will use other metrics and some subjectivity in all this. Massey compiles a composite rating thing. Good visual to see the outliers of different systems. IT does not look like he has KPI included, though. Wonder why? DSR is there.

You'll see UGA's lowest ranking appears in RPI. Notably, WVU, ASU, and Tenn in that category too.

The lowest are highlighted BLUE and the highest in RED.

 

gtbeak

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,513
Ok... my annual little rant about RPI. I waited until [almost] the end to see if the "math" would work itself out. It did not... again.

It needs to be relegated to the "other" or "interesting" rankings/ratings pile. OR the function needs to be modified to be better. Every season we reach this point and you look at the RPI rankings and there are teams you just know are not correctly ranked based on their resumes. Sure... RPI is a mathematical thing... but it produces flawed results. I suspect it is 2-fold.
1) Too much weight on the home/road factors
2) Too much negative weight on simply playing poor teams (....who generally play poor teams). If you are a good team that beats a bad team, you should not be (net) penalized.

Worth repeating... every year teams literally cancel games to avoid the the penalty of simply playing a weak RPI team. ...and there's always a crowd clamoring to say schedule tougher teams. Sometimes you 'try' and either it doesn't work out or the teams you scheduled that 'were good' the previous year turn out to be not good. You also need their schedule to be on the tough side too. Not as much control over that part of the RPI calc as folk may think.

This won't be popular... but objectively. When the SEC champ (by a LOT) has 22+ SEC wins and is barely cracking the Top 15 of your 'system', something is not right. UGA is 5-games ahead of the 2nd place SEC team, yet 6th in RPI in the conference. ??? I know folks will say "play a tougher schedule" and you won't have this problem. To that I say YES.. play a tougher schedule AND RPI is too flawed right now to be the primary tool to compare teams. Both things are true; and frankly, should not be related at all. That's the problem with a lot of problems out there...instead of actually fixing the root cause (RPI), folks bend over backwards to force changes 'around' the problem (i.e. cancelling games for no good reason other than the RPI impact or hand-waving "well they should have had a tougher schedule").

Again... I'm not saying get rid of the RPI. I like that it is a repeatable calculation and not hidden behind some proprietary "model". However, when it seems to be so heavily used to sort our post-season placement, I have a problem with that.

I'll hang up and listen...
Agree on point #2, but the posts you've been doing weekly about home/road series wins shows that they have point #1 almost dead nuts perfect. If anything, they have it skewed slightly more neutral than it should be. There's still the fundamental math flaw that 1/1.3 isn't 0.7 , but the 1.3:1 weighting is correct.
 

L41k18

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,014
Is there any chance Mercer gets an at large if they don't win the SoCon tourney? I hope so but I don't think it would happen.
 

gtbeak

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,513
Yes. Thank you for that reminder. No doubt the committee will use other metrics and some subjectivity in all this. Massey compiles a composite rating thing. Good visual to see the outliers of different systems. IT does not look like he has KPI included, though. Wonder why? DSR is there.

You'll see UGA's lowest ranking appears in RPI. Notably, WVU, ASU, and Tenn in that category too.

The lowest are highlighted BLUE and the highest in RED.

I've wondered the same about KPI.... why isn't it referenced by these composite sights? And it's not just Massey, PEAR also omitted KPI when it showed a chart about how the various ranking systems have performed as predictive tools. They all seem to ignore KPI even though, prior to this season, KPI was THE ONLY metric the committee looked at other than RPI. The committee has added DSR this year. ELO and PEAR aren't used by the committee, so referencing them when discussing where a team should be seeded shouldn't be done. Maybe they should be used, but right now they aren't.
 
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gtbeak

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,513
Is there any chance Mercer gets an at large if they don't win the SoCon tourney? I hope so but I don't think it would happen.
Yes. As I mentioned Sunday night, they will be in the conversation if they take care of business this weekend (win the series) and then lose the SoCon championship game. Their KPI/DSR score (51/44) may preclude them, but they will be in the discussion. It may come down to how many bids are stolen in conference tourneys by less than stellar teams.
 

TechPhi97

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Davidson, NC
Agreed on both of your main points. My “fixes” would be to:

(1) Change the home-neutral-away weighting to 0.8-1-1.2. The current weighting effectively says it’s twice as hard to win on the road than at home. That seems excessive. 50% more difficult seems more reasonable

(2) Assign everyone ranked 180 and worse the RPI of team #180. At some point bad teams are bad teams and all games against them should be weighted the same.
On point 2, why would that matter, other than for perception. My understanding of RPI is it’s just based off of Winning Pct - .25 * Yours + .50 * opponents + .25 * opponents’. opponents. Where winning % is using the 1.4, 1.0, 0.7 weighted values for home or away wins. “Capping” RPI wouldn’t change the underlying records of other teams.
 

gtbeak

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Messages
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I noticed that UNC has taken over the #1 spot in the DSR from UCLA. IMO, we want to win our way to the championship with a victory tonight and also see UNC take the series from NC State. That could (I'm not yet ready to say "will) lead to the ACC having two schools get top-4 seeds, which opens up more possibilities for the 2 seed in our regional. UNC is right now 5/5/1 (RPI/KPI/DSR), while we are 2/2/2. UCLA is now 1/1/3, Auburn is 3/3/6, Texas is 4/4/5, and UGa is 14/7/4.
 

3InchStinger

Georgia Tech Fan
Messages
15
On point 2, why would that matter, other than for perception. My understanding of RPI is it’s just based off of Winning Pct - .25 * Yours + .50 * opponents + .25 * opponents’. opponents. Where winning % is using the 1.4, 1.0, 0.7 weighted values for home or away wins. “Capping” RPI wouldn’t change the underlying records of other teams.
The worst part about RPI to me is that you can get a big bump from losing badly to a good team.

This is spit balling, but what if for the "opponents' strength" part of the calculation you only got credit for the wins of opponents you beat, and you only get dinged for the losses of opponents you lose to? So that part of the formula would be (sum of wins by opponents you've beaten) / (sum of wins by opponents you've beaten + sum of losses by opponents you've lost to)?

I'm sure there are some issues here I'm not seeing yet...
 

GTNavyNuke

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Featured Member
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Yep.. that is the math. Here is the problem. I'm repeating myself. UGA is going to probably be no lower than the #3 overall seed with an RPI 10-15. So... the committee is basically tossing RPI for UGA (for probably good reason). Now... if you're saying RPI does not suit your purposes for UGA... how can you justify leaning on it so heavily for ~90% of the field??

I can't & don't. Piss on 'em. SEC favoritism since SEC is top conference and they have to change practices to accommodate money / viewers.
 

BennyWheels

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
177
Is there any chance Mercer gets an at large if they don't win the SoCon tourney? I hope so but I don't think it would happen.
With a (current) RPI of 29, they’ll most definitely get an at large bid and would be a #2 somewhere. As long as they stay ahead of the 30 RPI mark, we shouldn’t see them in our region. Hopefully.
 

gtrower

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DSR updated to include last night and we’re still #2. BUT it’s UNC that’s now at the top and UCLA fell to 3rd.
 

DecaturJacket

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Just turned to the Mercer v ETSU game. t7 Mercer was down 6-5. ETSU brought in former Jacket Reid Brosnan. Walked the first guy. Got down 3-0 on the second. On 3-1 grooved one to that big 2 hitter Mercer has and he mashed it off the batter's eye. Mercer up 7-6 now.
 
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